[alecpm]

Hi Everyone,

My wife and I are remodeling the kitchen in our small condo and would love to have some advice and criticism. Our options are relatively limited, since it's a small space and the condo can be relatively restrictive (e.g., major plumbing or electrical changes are probably not going to be possible). The current kitchen has awful custom built cabinets from the early 70s (when the building was built). Though the layout isn't terrible, there's a lot of unused or unusable space.

I cook all the time, and need a functional kitchen with a lot of counter space and a good stove. Since the building is electric only, that means an induction cooktop instead of a range. I'd also like to get nearly everything off the counters and into drawers, cabinets, or onto the walls (Grundtal or similar). Maximizing our use of space, especially in the base cabinets is an important consideration.

We're not set on a particular style, but aren't really into either country or ultra-contemporary. We're looking at warm tones and real wood where possible. We'll be using cork on the floor, and black appliances (though we may keep a couple of our current white ones around for a bit depending on how the budget works out). We're hoping to use quartz counters (Viatera, Caesarstone, ...), but may go with a Numerar laminate if our budget demands it. I saw an earlier post which described a style as "organic contemporary", and I think that's a fair description of what we hope to have.

I've attached the planner file (2008) with a first pass at a design and a screenshot with some arrows indicating what we intend to use some of the cabinets for. I have a couple concerns about this layout (and you folks probably have a few to add):

1) The only space for garbage/recycling is under the sink. I'm not sure that's even possible without some plumbing contortions. Can two reasonably sized bins be accessibly stored in that sink base?

2) The dishwasher is directly across from the drawers where we intend to store dishes and flatware. I'm worried that the bottom drawer won't open sufficiently for us to use it when the dishwasher is open for unloading. However, it's possible that our frequently used dishes will all fit in the second drawer and the bottom one can be reserved for less frequently used items.

3) Our plumbing is strange. The water supply pipes are under the window on the far wall, but drain pipe is in the wall to the left of the sink, which means the pipe will need to go through the lazy susan blind-corner. Are the lazy susan shelves height adjustable in such a way that I could run a pipe through the cabinet without interfering with them too much?

4) There's no place to put sheet pans and baking racks for easy access. Perhaps we could construct a little doorless slot between the oven and refrigerator where we could slide them in? Or maybe they could just stand on their side in one of the lazy-susan cabinets?

5) I'd really like a hot water dispenser at the sink, but the Domsjo doesn't make that easy. Any ideas (aside from drilling a hole in the sink, which I'm not entirely opposed to)? Also, where can I find how large the bowls in the Domsjo are? I really like the style, but if it's not larger than other available options, then I may go with something more flexible and less fragile.

6) I'm not sure we need quite as many wall cabinets as I've got in the design, but everything else I tried seemed unbalanced. You can never have too many cabinets, I guess, but we're going to probably have a dishrack to the left of the sink and it might be nice not to have a cabinet over it.

Our current kitchen is a very similar layout with a range in place of the cooktop (only 12" from the wall though), and no cabinets on the refrigerator side. The sink is smaller and the dishwasher is immediately to the right of it. For some reason the planner software put the fan cabinet at the wrong height, it should be at the ceiling not right above the cooktop.

I really look forward to your suggestions and comments. We're open to changing just about anything, though there are unfortunately a bunch of practical limits. The venting and electrical require that the cooktop stay close to where it is (we already have a dedicated 240V circuit there and a vent above). There is another dedicated 240V outlet near the new oven location as well (that can be moved around a bit). Plumbing changes require the whole building's water to be shut off, so I'd like to minimize those. I hope that wasn't an overwhelming amount of information, and I look forward to your suggestions.

Thanks in advance,
Alec

[Narf]

Not that much in layout changes ... most of the work was in addressing the fillers/panels.

Where I did make changes ...
- Adel MB ... it's warm and it's wood.
- Wall corner cabinets, as access could be awkward otherwise.
- Filled up the other wall with wall cabinets too.
- Ditched the microwave cabinet ... the 30" tall unit doesn't leave enough height for larger microwaves, so ya may as well forget it. In a small space, go with a microhood.
- 18" 3-drawer unit instead, so they line up. To the left of that, use a plinth piece as a filler, put a hinge on it, and make it your cookie sheet storage.

As for trash/recycling ... small bins would work. The drain path is the issue, and depending on elevation, it may or may not be a restriction inside that corner cab.

Do note that an air gap is required on the dishwasher drain. Verify that your dishwasher is capable of discharging through 7' or so.

[alecpm]

Thanks!! I really appreciate your advice, as well as the time and thought you've put into helping me.

Originally Posted by Narf

Not that much in layout changes ... most of the work was in addressing the fillers/panels.

Indeed, that looks much better. BTW, how'd you get that fan cabinet to snap to the ceiling? I couldn't seem to manage it no matter what I tried. Is there a reason for those cover panels on either side of the cooktop cabinet?

Where I did make changes ...
- Adel MB ... it's warm and it's wood.

Indeed! My budget thanks you. For some reason I hadn't thought about that door style. I really liked the Ulriksdal kitchens in the catalog, but I think I'll need to make a trip to the showroom to really figure out what I want. I may even end up going with custom doors (thanks to information from this forum), since the the wood options from Ikea are relatively limited. I do need to make sure that our cabinets complement/contrast the cork that we choose for our floors (a decision which we've almost made).

Thanks for the handle suggestion as well.

- Wall corner cabinets, as access could be awkward otherwise.
- Filled up the other wall with wall cabinets too.

I think I'd like fewer wall cabinets rather than more, and that gap for the breakers looks odd to me. We've got normal wall cabinets in both those corners now, and access isn't too bad. I may just be fooling myself because I really want to play around with some of those Grundtal wall options. I do need to think about this a bit more, and I bet we could squeeze a ton of stuff into those corner cabinets. My petite wife will be the one facing the most difficulty with the upper cabinets, so I should probably leave that decision to her.

- Ditched the microwave cabinet ... the 30" tall unit doesn't leave enough height for larger microwaves, so ya may as well forget it. In a small space, go with a microhood.

That's too bad. So far I haven't been impressed with the ventilation capabilities of microhoods (and Consumer Reports seems to confirm my experiences). I cook all the time, and ventilation is very important to me. Does anyone know the exact size of the microwave opening in that cabinet? I'd be willing to scale down, as I don't really do much cooking in there.

- 18" 3-drawer unit instead, so they line up. To the left of that, use a plinth piece as a filler, put a hinge on it, and make it your cookie sheet storage.

I don't see which cabinet you changed. Looks like the base cabs are all the same. I do see that nice wide filler you have on the stove side of the kitchen. Is that where the tray storage would be? That would be perfect.

As for trash/recycling ... small bins would work. The drain path is the issue, and depending on elevation, it may or may not be a restriction inside that corner cab.

Having obsessively read the forums last night, I think I have a solution for the plumbing. I can use the Lee Valley blind corner unit in that base (which only takes up 35" of the 49") and the pipe will wind up right behind it. I might even be able to use a 36" cabinet mounted flush to the pipe (it would need to be about 13" from the wall), and save some cash while making some of the plumbing even simpler, though I guess that area with the pipe would end up nearly inaccessible.

Does anybody know the total storage area in the 37" corner lazy susan? I'm wondering if putting another Lee Valley unit there with a 12" trash pullout next to the sink might work better. The Lee Valley doesn't appear to be very pantry-ish, and I'd end up shrinking my dinnerware drawers, which I am very reluctant to do.

Do note that an air gap is required on the dishwasher drain. Verify that your dishwasher is capable of discharging through 7' or so.

I hadn't realized that was something to check on, I will certainly do so. I think that the drawer on the blind-corner probably won't open with the Domsjo sticking out like that. I fear our Domsjo dreams are dying a death of a thousand cuts. Looks like people have had success drilling them at least.

Thanks again for your help. I'll post something again soon, when I've finished playing around in the planner. Sorry again for being so long-winded, brevity is not my strong suit. This forum is really an incredible resource.

[Narf]

- The cover panels beside the cooktop cabinet is just there so the fan cabinet lines up. They're not needed in reality.
- Perhaps a mix of horizontal cabinets + open storage on the other wall, then? Closed storage is often more effective than open storage (hide the clutter!). As I'm vertically impaired myself, I keep a step stool (Bekvam) in the kitchen, though a floding one would take up much less space.
- As I know, the 30" tall microwave wall cabinet uses a single 24"x18" cabinet door ... that leaves about a foot height for a microwave.
- The 18" cabinet I changed is the one just to the left of the cooktop cabinet.
- A 36" blind corner won't save any space, and as it is, the half-round lazy-susans in the 49" blind corner don't go all the way back anyways, so you will have space back there.
- Stick with the 37" corner ... you'll want the 24" drawers for your dinnerware.
- Ignore the default blind corner setup ... you can do a single door there.

[alecpm]

Originally Posted by Narf

- The cover panels beside the cooktop cabinet is just there so the fan cabinet lines up. They're not needed in reality.
- Perhaps a mix of horizontal cabinets + open storage on the other wall, then? Closed storage is often more effective than open storage (hide the clutter!). As I'm vertically impaired myself, I keep a step stool (Bekvam) in the kitchen, though a floding one would take up much less space.

I'm hoping the open storage keeps us a bit more honest about our clutter, if not, it's one of the few things about the kitchen that will be relatively easy/cheap to change after we're done. I'm going to play around with that wall in the planner.

BTW, the 7' ceilings are due to a 1' soffit. Though the soffit is 20" wide on the cooktop and sink sides of the kitchen, it's under 9" wide on the refrigerator side. I fear that might not look so great with wall cabinets.

- As I know, the 30" tall microwave wall cabinet uses a single 24"x18" cabinet door ... that leaves about a foot height for a microwave.

It's a 13.5" opening according to this, which is thankfully plenty for me.

- A 36" blind corner won't save any space, and as it is, the half-round lazy-susans in the 49" blind corner don't go all the way back anyways, so you will have space back there.
- Stick with the 37" corner ... you'll want the 24" drawers for your dinnerware.
- Ignore the default blind corner setup ... you can do a single door there.

That's very good to know. If I do a full height door, it's also likely to hit the Domsjo though, right? Could I do a narrower door (18") and a plinth? I think I'll do the LV blind-corner either way, it's just so nifty (and so much cheaper than comparable units). Can I buy that cabinet without buying the lazy susan, drawer hardware, etc?

You rock Narf! Thanks again.

Alec

[Narf]

- Whether you're putting up cabinets or not, one thing you can do is match the 20" soffit ... but instead of just blocking it out, make a light cove out of it. A 12" deep shelf board may just do the trick here ... see sketch.
- There's a filler on the blind corner already, so a door might not be an issue. Some measuring at the store may be in order ...
- With Ikea cabinets, everything is component based and sold separately. Doors, hinges, drawers, shelves, interior fittings ... it's all separate. Helps save money, since one only buys what's needed, and makes it much easier to mod.

Hopefully, someone else can chime in on the how-to-order details for the last part ... the way I buy, practically EVERYTHING is down to it's component, boards, shelf pins, screws, etc. out of the AS-IS bin and all.

Edit: FWIW, the raw 49" blind corner cabinet is $50 and the raw 36" is $39 ... for the $11 difference, I say just take it all the way up to the corner. This way, the plumbing is accessible from inside the cabinet too (in case of future service).

[alecpm]

That lighted soffit extension is a really great idea! Looking around the kitchen this morning I realized that the smaller soffit is there so that it extends from the wall the same distance the larger soffit extends past the cabinets on the walls with cabinets. I like that effect and fear that the ceiling will seem too low if I extend the short soffits (it's a small room). But If I do hang a cabinet or two on that wall, then I'll definitely be going with your advice.

Thanks also for the additional cabinet information. I've been milling over doing the toekick drawer modification on the oven cabinet (and if it turns out well, maybe more) for the sheet pan storage. Then I could have a larger set of drawers to the left of the cooktop. I'm not really a big DIYer, but I'm reasonably handy, have access to tools, and have never had trouble assembling or installing IKEA furniture. I plan on hiring a contractor though, since I don't want to annoy the other condo residents for extended renovations conducted in my off-hours. :-) I'll probably do the mods and things like the soffit extension myself. Thanks again.

[Narf]

If you don't mind eating out for an extra week, I think you'll be able to pull it off DIY without making too much noise during the weekday evenings; all the "noisy stuff" can be done on the weekend.

Here's my take at a schedule, with the DIY at a reasonable pace for a only a few hours each day and on weekends.

- Do the demo and suspension rail installation on a weekend (#1).
- If your existing cabinets are salvagable, you can prolly get rid of them easily through craigslist (freebies!). Otherwise, find out from your condo association in regards to disposal.
- Patch and paint, then build out the raw cabinets through the week (#1). Do the assembly on a rug or carpet remnant to prevent scratches and to mute the sound. Use an electric brad nailer to fasten the backs ... they're quieter than hammers, not to mention much much faster.
- With the suspension rail, there's no need to individually drill into the walls for each wall cabinet, so it's not much of a noise maker there. Moving and leveling base cabinets isn't much of a noise maker either; just save the drilling for wall anchors for the weekend (#2). Same goes with drilling/fastening the cabinets to one another.
- Countertops are being contracted out, right? That would be done on a weekday (#2), so. Cooktop+oven and sink+plumbing (contracted out?) work will come after the countertops.
- Drawers, doors, etc. installed during this week (#2). Basic kitchen is usable at this stage.
- As there is cutting involved, save the duct work and trim work for another weekend (#3). Ditto with all the pulls.
- Door alignments and getting things back in place during the week (#3).